Frank Cirillo teaches both Kyokushin Karate and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu in a town of 26,000 people. Here's how he built 250 students and achieved financial freedom by combining traditional and modern martial arts.

• How Frank started teaching BJJ as a white belt because no instructor was available
• Why combining hard-style karate with Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu created unstoppable programs
• The pricing mindset that transformed Frank's business after 18 years
• How small-town dynamics actually work in favor of premium martial arts programs
• Why parents said “it's about time” when Frank finally valued his expertise properly
• The business advantage of being a multi-disciplinary martial arts expert

 *FREE: Bring 50 Enrollments Into Your Martial Arts School Every 90 Days Need help growing your martial arts school? Watch Training + Take The Assessment

TRANSCRIPTION

George: Hey, it's George Fourie.

Welcome to another Martial Arts Media™ Business Podcast.

So this episode is one of my favorite episodes to do, which is a bit of a blend of a case study, but then also a deep dive and getting to know some of our Partner members a bit better.

So, welcome to the call, Frank Cirillo.

How are you, Frank?

Frank: How are you, George?

Great to be here.

George: Awesome.

Cool.

So, I was just looking, we started working together back in October, and I wanted to bring you on.

You've had some great success and achieved some great milestones in your business, but I want to, I guess, have the conversation that we don't typically have on the calls and get to know the entire journey, how this all began and so forth.

So we can just kick it off right at the beginning.

Who is Frank Cirillo?

Frank: The deep question.

George: The deep one.

Frank: Well, mostly Frank is a family-orientated person.

Everything I do is for my family.

And now we've got a granddaughter in the mix who's a week old as well.

George: Congratulations.

Frank: Thank you.

Thank you.

That's a bit of a life changer right there.

When it comes to martial arts, I've been doing it.

I started kind of late because I started in my teens, and I've been doing it ever since: judo, karate, and then much, much later into my adult life, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

We are from an isolated area in country New South Wales.

So, it had its challenges as well.

The information that we sort of were taught from my past instructors was, I won't say limited, but it took a long time to get any updated information, which I was hell-bent on fixing when I took over; I was hell-bent on fixing that.

So lots and lots of travel and trying to work with some of the best in the country and overseas so I could bring, to become more well-rounded for myself and to be able to offer much better services, much better martial arts here in Griffith and surrounds.

And it's been a really long journey, but it's finally starting to pay dividends.

We didn't have any Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu anywhere near our area.

So that's a crazy story in itself.

Well, I don't know how many people out there, I'm sure there are, but there are instructors.

I went through two or three instructors till we found coach Anthony Perosh through a mutual friend.

He was fighting in the UFC at the time, and a mutual friend contacted him and then asked me to contact Anthony.

And he started off as we do as white belts, but we were instructing here as white belts as well and travelling back and forth to Sydney, following a syllabus, a little film clips, etc.

So yeah, it was very strange to be offering classes as a white belt, but there was no one here.

So we, there was a group of us, 10 or so people.

And what it is now is a whole bunch of us; like anyone that walks in now, they don't know the difference because we've got our black belts.

So no one asks anything now.

And now we have little kids' classes, intermediate classes.

I have an instructor who runs classes 50, 60 Ks out of town himself.

It's just been a real eye-opener that if you stick to things, it's amazing how things tend to pan out sooner or later.

And I'm so glad that we stuck it out.

It hasn't been easy.

It's been very hard out here and balancing two martial arts, very different from one another.

And they're hard, hard, hard martial arts.

I couldn't do it any other way after doing Kyokushin karate for so long.

It had to be something equally as hard and realistic.

That's really important to me.

George: Yeah.

Pretty cool.

So, the start of this jiu-jitsu journey, and when you say like,  there were no instructions around, how long ago are we talking about when you started this, the jiu-jitsu component?

Frank: The jiu-jitsu component was probably 15 years ago.

So once again, I started this quite late, quite late, but I saw,  I saw it opening as well.

We had to evolve and I needed to offer something.

There's this other karate in Griffith and there's also another Kyokushin,  in a different organization in Griffith.

So I said, look, if I'm going full time, which that was a process as well to quit,  I have a hospitality background managing clubs and pubs and whatnot to just let all that go and kind of start from scratch again.

Yeah.

It was a real process, but in karate, I travelled a thousand kilometers a week, teaching at little satellite towns,  somewhere an hour and a half, two hours away.

And I'd go there twice to each place,  the closest was an hour away.

And I would do that twice a week, in five or six other towns, as well as having my hospitality job, as well as coming to my own classes,  with my own instructor.

So,  that was huge.

George:  So take us through those milestones, because I always like to explore.

It's good to see where you are and we'll talk about results and where you're at a bit later on, but it's always good to unpack the key decisions, right?

Because we all face milestones and obstacles in business.

And,  we face these decisions, we make a decision, most of the time, a leap of faith, and it's always a leap of faith, right?

Because it's stepping into the unknown.

So, you mentioned hospitality, cool.

I've been doing martial arts since your teens. By the way, it's funny when you say you started late, because I started martial arts when I was 36.

So it's always refreshing, the perspective of late.

But take us through those early stages.

When you started teaching, you were doing all these satellite locations.

How did you get to opening the full-time location and then also letting go of the hospitality?

Frank: If I can remember a very pivotal point, I was out of hospitality for a while and I was working in a factory here, a chicken factory in town.

And I've always known, I've always been motivated, always listening to the motivational tapes,  Anthony Robbins and all that ilk.

And I knew that I wanted more for me and my wife and my very young family at the time.

And I remember it was lunchtime and I went, I need more.

And I remember just putting all my coats, boots, hair nets, how embarrassing that was working in a cold meat factory, and just getting in my car and driving off and going, no, I need more for myself.

And having to tell my wife that we're going to be down to one income for a while.

And then I just, just put some ads in local towns, 50 Ks away, a hundred Ks away, and then just started driving there and teaching there.

And there'd be like 40, 50, 60 people in an RSL club hall or, the local town hall, et cetera.

And it all came crashing down a few years later because, I don't know if you remember, but anyway, the fuel prices went, they doubled.

And people here in the country, they were counting their cents, not their dollars anymore.

And it got to the point where the numbers dropped.

They just, so I ended up having to close them all down pretty much.

And I went back to hospitality and I was working 60, 70 hours a week, sometimes more.

And just wasn't seeing my family anymore.

And I realized one day I had that, just that moment in my head, what am I doing?

Why don't I just go full-time in one place?

And I was still training and my instructor said, “Frank, I'm getting out of it.”

He sold me what was left of his business.

But I had ideas and that was it.

I bought a very skeleton business that was open a couple of times a week with a junior class and an adult's class.

And we just sort of bit the bullet and went from there and implemented little kids programs, and I just saw that everything would feed into the next age group.

The next age group would feed into the teens, the teens would feed into the adults.

And it was a long-term plan.

And that's pretty much what happened.

And this is, we ended up moving from that location to the one we're in now.

And we haven't looked back.

The hardest part, and you have heard this story a thousand times, we're all faced with the stigma, especially with traditional martial arts, that you shouldn't be making money out of this, pretty much should be doing it for free or just a token amount.

And I've lived with that guilt for a very long time, like most of us have.

Times have changed and times were changing, and I put the price up a little bit and still just fought with that guilt.

And I knew there was more.

And then eventually it came down to, I had to get professional or nothing.

We were, I was going to lose everything pretty much.

And, pretty much just wait, you come to George.

And this year has been an absolute watershed moment.

The only thing I regret, and I don't regret much, was that it's so late in our lives to face the fears.

And they have been afraid.

And sometimes, there's a little bit of that guilt still there.

There's a little bit of that fear, worrying about what people are going to say and whatnot, but the guilt and the fear is all up here.

It never really ever once materialized as anything else apart from what was going on in my own head.

George: You mentioned the guilt.

Where do you think that stems from?

Do you feel that it is from just growing up, your environment, or do you feel it's like a stigma that came from the top, from your peers in martial arts, your instructors, et cetera, that sort of embedded that thought process, that guilt thought process upon you?

Frank: Most definitely that traditional view in martial arts, the town hall, in the back of a club, all that kind of thing.

We should be passing on our knowledge and we shouldn't want anything for it or very little.

Most of my instructors worked hard during the day in their profession and then taught in the afternoon at night.

There's an instructor in town, for instance, work, God bless him.

He works at the PCYC and he does it for nothing still or very little.

And I got people looking down at me, looking down, sort of frowning, saying, what are you doing?

And yeah, I kind of felt bad.

But when I started to see, well, what am I, how am I different from the local tradesman or the doctor or any other business?

How am I different?

And I'm not.

I took the hard lumps for a very long time.

Our degrees and bachelors and diplomas might not be earned so much in a university, but gee, the sacrifice and the physical and mental toll and the tolls on our family, that's, that was a price to pay.

So we have earned our way to where we are now.

People still say to me, “Frank, I'd love to do what you're doing. You are so lucky.”

And I said, “Yo, it's really funny.  The harder I seem to work, the luckier I get.”

That's just like anyone else, anyone that's in business, they're working hard quietly.

No one sees it.

Everyone just sees that eventually you have a nice house and probably a nice car and can go away on a holiday occasionally.

George: Everybody admires the end result and the outcome, but nobody's sort of praising through the struggle.

Nobody wants to walk the journey to get there.

It's very interesting, this tall poppy syndrome that it's just alive in, and depending on where you're listening to this, it's tall poppy syndrome is kind of the, I explain it as the crab in the bucket.

Everybody wants you to be successful, just not more than them.

It's like, it's great that you're successful.

Just don't rise above us.

We got to pull you back down like the crab in the bucket.

Frank: Yeah.

George: It's very toxic.

And then, I mean, we should be celebrating, we should be celebrating success, making an impact.

I mean, how many people do you want to impact through martial arts?

If it's just, you do want to do what you're doing, you got your day job, you've got your,  that's martial arts, your passion, and you do it in a school.

There's nothing, there's nothing wrong with that.

That's amazing.

Just don't frown on the people that want to do more.

And if you want to impact more, we live in a world where it requires dollars and cents.

And if we don't have that, then how do we do that?

So there's got to be, you got to have some level of success to pass on your success and to pass on your knowledge.

So, I mean, I'd feel that anybody, any martial artist that is really serious about making the biggest impact, then it comes with being successful and charging a premium for that.

Frank: Yeah, that's for sure.

Look, we have a wall in our dojo with black belt certificates.

Every student that they give us their black belt certificate.

And I say to them, if things were that easy, we'd be wallpapered in black belt certificates, but the reality is not everyone's going to walk the walk, and it's okay that they stop when they stop.

That's okay.

Or they only have a certain amount of energy or their vision was for a certain kind of, to get to a certain kind of point.

That's okay.

Not everyone's going to fulfil the full black belt journey and black belt could be anything.

For us, it's the martial arts, but the black belt equivalent is doing the hard work, following through and getting to that, getting to that holy grail.

George: We're recording this December, 2025.

Looking back, we started working together in October, 2024.

You mentioned that sort of where, where we came in, how are things at that point?

And so what are the, what were the big problems you were facing at that time?

Frank: It was just that we were pretty much just making ends meet, and then all it took was a big bill,  you were never seeing any cream and we're just fighting the fight.

And at my age now, I expected to be somewhere else,  I expected to be a lot more relaxed.

We can go on a holiday whenever we want.

We weren't dictating terms at all.

I was ready to sell.

I literally, one of my black belts, a young person, I was actually talking to that person and saying,  you'll sell it.

And then I'm thinking, well, if I sell it, it's not going to be for much.

And then I'm going to have to find a job.

I just turned 57.

Do I really want to go find a job and do this all over again, knowing that I don't want to work for anybody?

We were that close.

Like I said, we were always just making ends meet, but it was just struggle, struggle, struggle still,  and I knew we just had to do something.

And I think I said to you earlier, I saw one of your podcasts and it just, I'm like, well, that's kind of what I'm thinking, but I just need someone to show me.

And of course I had my fears, the price point and all that, the fear of having to tell people that I'm putting the prices up.

I never, I had put prices up, but it was never anything substantial, a dollar or two.

And even then I was absolutely worried that they were going to get upset about the one or $2.

And I wanted this so bad because next year is 20 years.

And I caught you at the end of 18 years.

And I went, what have I achieved?

Sure.

We have changed so many people's lives.

The services, I don't mind saying that it's great because we are very passionate about what we do.

That side of things, the feedback was always great.

 We just took another two students to a world cup in Japan on the weekend.

I wasn't there.

I couldn't go there, but  to see these people achieve something.

I could tell you some of their life stories, the lack of confidence and other things undermining them in their lives, and what our service has done for them.

I see our three-year-old kids 10 weeks later implementing their three-year-old program this term, what they couldn't do.

They couldn't even, so a lot of them couldn't even walk on the mat at the end of this week, doing forward roles and things that they were absolutely petrified of doing.

I know our service was great.

That's what was so frustrating, George, but I'm like our own self-worth, maybe that has something to play in it too.

Maybe we felt we weren't worth the value.

 you made us look at that and that was really important.

A lot of watershed moments this year.

George: That's amazing.

So student-wise, were you, but can you just, how many students were you at in October?

I think it was 180, I think.

Frank: Yeah.

George: 180 students.

Cool. Yes.

Frank: Which sounds good.

George: Yeah.

A hundred percent.

So, because for a lot of people, 180 students, it's a lot of students.

So you were working a lot and making a big impact on a lot of students' lives.

And obviously the reflection of building 180 students in the town of Griffith, I don't know what the population is, but it's not a major city.

So yeah, that's a major accomplishment in itself.

How are things today?

Where are you today with student numbers?

Frank: Well, we're sitting around the 250 mark at the moment, which we're wrapped.

You added a couple more classes.

People are, there isn't a week that doesn't go by where we don't have people ringing and asking; leads are being generated.

Yeah.

I can see, I told you our goal, the magic number for now is 300.

I didn't expect the 250 this quick.

And it's a solid 250 because we went backwards for a while because we did lose people.

A lot of it's just natural attrition at the start of every year, people reassess during their six-week break.

That's always been normal, but we lost some, we gained some.

It went back and forth, fluctuated quite a bit, but it's been a solid 250 the last few months in particular.

George: Cool.

And so how's life different now from October last year?

Frank: In all honesty, the financial stress, mostly running a household, running a business, it's decreased dramatically.

We're still got our eye on it for sure, but that thumb down on our head has subsided quite substantially.

And it's allowed us to be more free flowing with our ideas as well.

And now I'm looking at paying an instructor this coming year, which I've never done before.

So I can kind of take a step back, which that's another thing.

Like I've been a control freak for so long because we have to make sure all the money's coming in, pay the bills, et cetera.

But having that opportunity now next year, I've earmarked some classes and I've talked to some instructors where I would like to not travel to as many tournaments.

Because that's a financial burden as well.

There's no, you don't make money travelling to referee and judge and to coach.

There's no money in that.

Well, that I know of George, maybe you can talk to me about that later.

But that's a big expense on its own.

And when you're doing that several times a year, travelling to Japan, travelling to other countries, you're not making an income out of that particular thing.

But we do those kinds of things for the love and the passion of that as well.

But these things cost money.

So being able to have that freedom to now just take a breath and be able to re-evaluate ourselves now and see where we can back off a little.

That's been great.

George: Love it.

180 to 250.

So that you've grown 70 students in just about 14 months as we track now.

What were the big things that you implemented that made that happen?

Frank: Well, the main one at first was the price point.

We had to get over ourselves.

That was number one thing.

It was how much do we value our service and what should we be paying?

What should we be charging?

Let's bite that bullet and make bigger increases.

I looked in, we looked in town at comparable services at the best dance studios in town.

What are they charging?

We realized we were so under charging that we went, wow.

And we realized, look at all the classes we're having.

We had people coming four or five times a week and it worked out three bucks a class.

Who gets anything for $3?

 That's just awful.

Great for them.

They loved it.

And when we finally bit the bullet and  you coaxed us a little, here's a starting point, but  you still got more to go.

No one complained.

No one, as a matter of fact, had parents come up and go, “Oh, we always kind of felt bad. We felt bad. We felt bad that our kids were training five times a week.”

I'm going, “What do you mean you felt bad?”

He goes, “Well, we realized that they would travel training this many times and it didn't work out very well.”

They never said that before.

No one's going to say it.

No.

So they all knew that they were on a good wicket at our expense.

So they valued us more than we did.

And that was a real eye opener that they valued us more than we did, but they're not going to say anything while they're getting it for such a bargain basement price.

Why would you?

So when we did put the prices up, yeah, people were kind of saying, well, it's about time.

We're wondering when you would do this.

And we were absolutely petrified.

We're going to lose everybody.

Everything's going to come crashing down.

I mean, that's a legitimate fear.

Many conversations we've had.

And if I'm jumping ahead, our little group talks with the Partners and just listening in on them and realizing no one lost anything.

If anything, we gained people because even one of my past instructors from Sydney, he used to tell us all the time, he mentioned that one of his students has started a dojo further down in Sydney where there's $5 a class and he was getting next to no one there.

And across the road, there was another school who was charging three times that price, which still is cheap.

And their classes were full.

And he was telling us, “Frank, it's got nothing to do with the price. It's always been about the service.”

And in Griffith in particular, where we are kind of away from everybody else, people will pay a premium for any product in this town, whether it's a meal or any kind of service, if they know they're getting the quality.

If they know that when they bring their kids here or when they come here, that they know they are getting something valuable.

So that was the lesson we had to learn.

George: I think for any martial arts school, the worst comparison you can probably make is other martial arts schools when it comes to pricing, because they're probably all doing the same thing.

You just have to go look at gymnastics, dance, swim, and you'll quickly see what the value is.

And there's no reason why my martial arts should be any less.

And as much as we like it, price in itself dictates value.

Because I mean, you can't say it's very hard to believe you're the best and the cheapest.

Something there in your mind, it just doesn't add up.

But if you're the best and you're the most expensive, there might be a bit of a backlash.

Well, whoa, they're more expensive.

But then you have to sort of analyze, well, why?

What is the difference?

You buy a Kia or a Mercedes, they both get you from A to B.

One's going to have a vastly different experience than the other, just when it comes from quality, the service, et cetera.

Swap the two prices around, and you might look at it differently in itself.

It's like, well, hang on, why is the Kia more expensive than the Mercedes?

So as much as we can debate it or hate it, but it's just that's just how physics work, if that's the right way to put it.

Frank: Yeah, it is.

Like I said, I've learned, my wife and I've learned that people will pay for a good service.

So as long as we maintain a good service and keep, I believe we've got to keep evolving, and evolving doesn't necessarily mean adding services, but getting better at the way we teach.

Learn a little bit more about psychology.

Learn about how kids learn and how people respond.

Sometimes it's even less about the martial arts.

It is about psychology as well.

And I have found that very important.

So I do other courses as well.

And I pass on this information to some of my other instructors that run dojos outside of our town.

And they get back to me and go, “Oh, Frank, offering this, this, and this, these games, or a little debrief at the end of a class where kids get a chance to say something, ask a question.”

That's all part of the service.

And I've always believed in over-deliver, over-deliver in value.

And they'll always then know that they're getting their bang for their buck.

George: So good you mentioned that, the psychology of things.

And that's where I always feel, I always look at people that come to the Partners group and the ones that excel and really get results.

It's the school owners that want to not just get a lead, but actually evolve how to work those leads and how to do marketing better, because it's all really one skill.

If you think about the skill of marketing and sales, and I'm not talking about marketing and sales ripping people off.

I'm talking about showing people the true value of something that is good for them and showing them something that's going to improve their life and making sure you do the best job at that.

And if you can provide that level of influence, I believe it's the same influence that you're going to need on the mats.

When someone's facing an obstacle or your awareness of seeing, well, Johnny's a bit different today.

What's going on?

Something seems different.

Is there something going on?

Or having the awareness of a change in class behavior or showing up and identifying roadblocks that people are facing.

The martial arts are the same.

It's the way you assess what's happening around that and your level of awareness to where your students are at.

Frank: Yeah.

Look, you really got to be all in and all encompassing.

People come to us because we like to think that we're the best at what we do.

Where we have holes, we have to go to the best and learn and be guided by them.

We have to acknowledge our weaknesses and defer to someone that can guide us.

That's the way life works, isn't it?

It sure as hell should be.

You have to be all in.

And the difference, George, with what I found with your product, because I did go to some others, you don't learn anything when they do the work for you.

And you're just hoping that they're not ripping you off and they're doing what they say as advertised.

But here, you're providing the information, but we have to do the work.

That's how we learn.

If you're trying to lose weight, just defer to some company and they send you the food, but nothing about nutrition, it's a very short-term fix.

And when they're gone, what did you actually learn?

What did you absorb?

Nothing.

So that's what I love about this, George.

I'll be honest, I would pay for something until it didn't work.

But I never committed.

And then I realized, well, that's kind of ridiculous, but considering what I preach in my dojo, how do you get to Black Belt?

I didn't have the Black Belt mindset when it comes to the business side.

I had to be all in.

I had to also pay for what I needed.

You know what I mean?

George: Yeah, I mean, because it's like frowning upon the student that comes in and wants the Black Belt, but shows up once every two weeks for class and frowning at the result.

It's a two-way thing.

You can provide all the classes in the world, but if the other party doesn't show up, it's not energy in sync moving together.

You want it more for them than they want it for themselves.

Frank: That's right.

George: So Black Belt mindset, and I'm not there yet in my martial arts journey, but if I think just from a martial arts mindset perspective, it's just all the same.

It's the same level of thinking in a different modality, martial arts and business.

Frank: Correct. 

This is what I'm learning.

When you commit to something, you don't say, “This is what I do.”

It's who I am.

I'm all this.

You have to live it, not just dabble.

It's not something I do.

It's something I am.

That's what I tell our students.

You're either a martial artist or you're not.

Be a martial artist.

The same way you go to school or to work, this is what you do.

This is who you are.

You are that person.

Frank Cirillo has a business.

Frank Cirillo needs help from other people.

Here I'm talking to him in the third, but I'm trying to say, this is who you are.

You have to beat not what you do, it's who you are.

And once you've crossed that line, I know for me, I've accepted that if I want to be well-rounded, then this is also part of what I need to do.

George: Awesome.

Frank, so I've got two real quick questions.

You could probably sort of finish the sentence, you almost didn't join Partners because…

Frank: I thought it'd be just like everything else I've tried.

George: Okay.

Frank: Yeah, but it's not.

Well, I'm still here.

I'm telling you, if you saw my track record, I would have been out within a month of anything else I've tried.

George: That's cool.

All right.

And who would you recommend?

Frank: Anyone that will listen, anyone that is in the martial arts journey that wants more for themselves, if they're sick of the nine to five and truly have a passion for this and want to cross over to it, then I couldn't recommend you enough.

I've recommended you to all my instructors who are sort of affiliated with me and I keep feeding them links, your videos that you put online, just to make sure it's in their head.

But at the same time, because I know I've been there, in the end, they're going to have to do it for themselves.

They have to be fully committed themselves.

So I recommend it.

My experience so far has been, I've said it to you in our groups, it's just I keep learning all the time.

The value in the first one or two sessions with you, George, changed everything because it crossed me over and my wife, when we talked about it and we said, are we doing this or we're not doing this?

But the value in spending time in our Zooms with the other Partners, with other like-minded people, we're all the same, but seeing people at different parts of their journey, but everyone's always still going upwards and hearing their journeys and listening to their tips that they offer.

Everyone is so generous with their knowledge.

Rising tides float all boats.

Well, we're all in this together.

And that's how I feel.

That community itself is worth, is priceless, to be honest.

I'm still picking up new things all the time and implementing them in class and just getting great results.

So the community, the full product, the full service, it's just been like life-changing for my family.

Life-changing, that's a fact.

George: So cool, Frank.

Frank, thanks so much for jumping on and sharing your journey.

If anybody wants to follow, like follow you or connect with you, where can they do that on the internet?

Frank: On the internet, we're on Facebook and Instagram, CirillosRMA, C-I-R-I-L-L-O-S-R-M-A.

And yeah, you'll see our posts.

You can see little videos of our kids, our adults, everything that we provide in real time.

We want to shine the light on our students.

They are our greatest reflection.

George: Love it.

Cool, Frank.

Thanks so much for sharing.

Thanks for coming on and sharing your journey.

And so if we had to set a milestone, we'll do this conversation again when you hit 300 students.

Frank: 300, yep.

That'd be great.

That'd be a great celebration, to be honest.

I look forward to it.

George: Good stuff.

Thanks so much, Frank.

Thank you so much.

I'll see you on one of the calls.

Frank: Yep.

Take care.

Cheers.

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