How Australian Martial Arts Academy's head instructor turned chronic fatigue into a leadership edge – driving growth and retention at a top-tier school.

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IN THIS EPISODE:

• The Belt-By-Belt Recovery Story That Changed Mark’s Life (And His Students')

• Walking Away From Medicine To Pursue The Martial Path Full-Time

• The Hidden Energy Technique That Helps You Show Up Big—Even When You’re Running On Empty

• How Teaching On Crutches Inspired A Wave Of Black Belts To Keep Going

• The Sales Strategy That Works As Well In A Kids Class As It Does On The Phone

• And more

 *FREE: Swipe the exact plan I use to fill martial arts schools with 200+ students within 7 months (And make sure your students are an incredible fit > Learn More

TRANSCRIPTION

George: Hey, it's George Fourie. Welcome to another episode of the Martial Arts Media™ Business Podcast. So, today I'm speaking with Mark Loughran from the Australian Martial Arts Academy.

So, episode 156—155—I’d been chatting to Hakan, Hakan Manav, and Mark’s name dropped in there quite a few times. So I thought I’d bring the man on himself to have a chat about 18 years in martial arts. 

He’s also one of the head instructors at the Australian Martial Arts Academy, and one of our featured speakers at the Partners Intensive that’s coming up in June, depending on when you listen to this.

But with that said, welcome to the call, Mark.

Mark: Thank you very much. Great to be here. 

George: Good stuff.

We've only just recently met as well. So I'm going to take this as a blank canvas and a conversation just to tap into your genius, the things that you do. So if we had to start from the beginning, who's Mark, how did you get into the industry? Let's go from there.

Mark: Yeah, that's a really interesting story, actually. My journey into the martial arts industry started as a recovery piece. Flashback to 2005, I was graduating high school.

So, that makes me feel like I’m starting to get old now, everyone I’m teaching was born after that year. Flashback to that time, I graduated high school and got presented with a couple of opportunities.

One was from my parents. They said, “If you want to go further and study at university, you can do that,” because my dad worked as a Deputy Vice Chancellor at James Cook Uni. I grew up in Townsville, in Far North Queensland.

And they said, “If you want to go to university here, go for it. Stay at home, it’s free, all good.”

And they said, but if you want to go away, pay for it yourself. And that was the deal. My brother had the same deal.

He was a couple of years older than me. And he got himself a full scholarship to Melbourne uni. And he was like, Townsville was too hot.

I did the exact same thing, except I went to UNSW. So I've got a scholarship to study medicine at UNSW and went down there, started that journey and ended up getting really sick towards the end of my first year with glandular fever. 

And there was a whole piece of trying to identify what was going on there, because I was really sick for quite a long time. I ended up with chronic fatigue syndrome, which I still have now, 19 years on.

And I still battle that every single day. My sort of path into martial arts started about a year after I got really sick with that. I ended up bed-bound for one to two years.

Part of my recovery, actually, I should backtrack a little bit. I was doing high-level athletics at a national level at that time as well. I used to play A-grade tennis and represented Queensland in different sports when I was in high school.

I was always an athletic person. And then, for someone to go from that to completely bed-bound, it was a big change and a big struggle. So part of my recovery from that was, there is no treatment.

It's just management. Try and do some exercise. What have you never done? And so I thought, Oh, I've never tried martial arts, always been interested.

And I remember picking up the phone, I was looking through, back in those times, looking through the phone book, and found Australian Martial Arts. 

I called, and it was actually Grandmaster Ridvan who answered the phone. I explained who I was, what my limitations were at the time, and how I’d been completely bed-bound. .

I couldn’t do anything.

I was 54 kilos at the time. So to put that in perspective, I was very ill. Everything was a real struggle at that point in time.

And I turned up to do my first class. I did one punch and collapsed in the middle of the mat. My first instructor was actually one of the other head instructors here, Sarah.

She was actually studying exercise science. She's an exercise scientist and dietitian. And I remember walking through the door.

I did my first lesson. And then she said to me, so what have you got? And I said, Oh, chronic fatigue. And she goes, I'm studying that.

I want to talk to you. And so I did one punch collapse in the middle of the mats. And then she just left me there.

20 minutes later, she came and picked me up. I did another punch and went home feeling the best buzz ever, because that was more than I'd done in almost two years. And the reason I left with such a buzz as she goes, you have really no energy.

So I'm going to teach you a self-defense move. And I'm thinking, yeah, what can I do? And she goes, I'm going to teach you a really cool pressure point that you can use if someone's really close to you. I was like, Oh, okay.

And she taught me pressure point defense techniques. And I was like, oh, that's actually really interesting. I got home.

My brother came over to me and he goes, “Oh, so how was it? What did you learn?” I said, “Oh, come here.” And he leaned in really close and I did it to him. And he came back with me two days later and signed up.

And he goes, “Whatever you're learning, I'm learning.” And that’s sort of a condensed version of my introduction into martial arts. 

It was a very scary first step because I thought most people would look at someone in their late teens or early twenties starting their martial arts journey and think, “What’s wrong with you? Why can't you keep up?” That thought of, “What are people on the sideline or in the class going to think of you?” 

But I walked in here and none of that existed. It was just, “You're welcome,” straight away.

No matter what the barrier was, you're here for your own journey. It doesn't matter what someone else is doing. How can we help you be successful? 

And I fell in love with that and ended up finding that while I had these really significant health limitations, I was able to, as my belt progressed in my martial arts journey, so did my health. I went from being able to do two punches on my second lesson, to four punches.

Then it became eight punches. And then I could start to do a kick or a knee or a movement. Every lesson I came to, I felt like I was moving forward and able to participate more and do more.

You reach a certain point where you go, “Wow,” going from literally being able to take less than ten steps a day to being able to complete a forty-minute class. That's game-changing. 

And so going from that level to then being able to say, “Wow, now my belt is improving, now I feel healthier, I feel stronger, I can do more,” I reached a point in my health journey where it was, “Okay, if I keep studying, it's full-time medicine. There's no part-time job in that field.”

And so it was, if I went to do that, I couldn't train. And if I didn't train, my health went downhill really quickly. So I tried that and that wasn't my path I was meant to take.

And, and so I was like, oh, wow. Okay. It seems like my health is best when I'm at martial arts.

And so I was like, all right, how do I turn this into what I can do? And Grandmaster Ridvan and Hakan and Sarah all said to me, you're pretty good at this, have you thought about ever teaching? 

And I was like, oh, okay. It was a different pathway. And so I got tapped on the shoulder and had to go at that.

George: How old are you, then?

Mark: I was 19. 

George: 19. Okay.

Mark: 19 when I started my martial arts journey. And so two and a half, three years down that track, I would have been 21, roughly when they came up and said, oh, have you thought about teaching? And I was like, oh, this is something different.

Never thought about it before. And so I started down that road and sunk my teeth into it. And by that stage, because I was training more, my health was doing better.

And I always noticed that the days where I didn't train, my energy levels were so much lower. It was very hard. Even today, all these years down the road, if I'm not teaching that day, my energy is so much lower.

For any student I have, they would have no idea that I've still got chronic fatigue, that I fight it every single day because I'll have 60, 80 people in my class and they have no idea.

George: Yeah. I'm surprised that you say that because the way you show up is with this high level of energy and you beam with energy.

Is that like you've just got moments in the day and then you've got to really back down and recuperate? Or is it like highs and lows? Or is it just knowing when you've got to show up and when you've got to like…

Mark: That's a really good question. The answer is a bit of both in terms of how to answer that.

But for me, it's really a case of I operate at this level all the time because I've found that if you give, when you give energy, whether it's even through a screen, through delivery, through presenting, however you do it, you get energy back. 

And the more you can do that, the better the response is. I find that with every class that I run.

But what that does mean is of course there is a trade-off and no one really ever sees that trade-off except for my closest family, my partner. She sees it when I go home. 

There are times at night, most nights I reach a point where I've literally hit that brick wall. I can no longer move. I can't talk. I just shut down and that's it. 

And that can sometimes be in the middle of a conversation, unfortunately, which does make that side of things a real challenge.

But in terms of what I can contribute and deliver, I'm always so grateful for what martial arts has given me in terms of having this ability to teach and to share with other people and positively impact people's lives and actually help them change their lives because I genuinely attribute martial arts to saving my life in terms of having a sense of useful daily activities that I can be part of and do now. 

And really this year's just launched for me in terms of the more that I do, the more I can participate and give to the world, which is just fantastic. 

George: Very fascinating.

It reminds me of a couple of things. Tony Robbins, if you go to one of his events, there's a whole bunch of crazy dancing, which can get a bit weird. I think there's a lot of dancing. 

Maybe it was during COVID or one of the lockdown times, but there's no denying that motion creates emotion. And the way you show up, if you're jumping up and down, creating and manufacturing energy, it's there.

The other philosophy that I like is Todd Herman has got a book called The Alter Ego Effect. He's a high performance coach for athletes. 

The Alter Ego Effect is, I guess, like putting your Batman uniform on. You know where you've got to be and so you step into that persona. And for some people it's a trigger, putting on a band or doing something that just signifies I'm now in Mark instructor mode or I'm in this mode. 

No matter how you feel, you're tired, you're this, you just train your mind that that's the arena where you’ve got to perform and now you're putting on that suit and showing up.

Mark: That's exactly it. And it's something that you try to train younger instructors to understand. Leave your problems at the door. You walk in, you're this person because of the people in front of you.

But to go from having that as something you say to something that you genuinely have to live, and I think in a way I attribute this illness to giving me that ability because it becomes wholly about the people in front of you and how you can serve them. 

Because if any part of you is selfish in that, it just drains you. Whereas if you 100 percent give yourself to the people in front of you and you literally give every part of yourself to that, there has to be an energy transfer. There has to be that reward for that.

You can literally see that wow, this person, even this kid who's five and refusing to get involved, you get them to smile at you and you're like hey, I've just done something positive for that kid today. 

They probably had the worst day at school possible, but now things are changing.

George: So I've got to then ask, how does that then for you transfer to instructing, to martial arts instructing? You probably now have a different lens of showing up and using your energy wisely. 

So how do you feel that gives you an edge instructing whether it's kids or adults, helping them with obstacles or getting in their own way? How do you feel that's helped you?

Mark: Yeah, that's a great question. I genuinely believe that short of literally somebody not having any arms or legs, there is no reason why someone can't participate. 

Genuinely people come in and say I've got this injury on my lower back, it's limiting me, I've always had an interest but I just won't be able to, or whatever the barrier or reason is, it gives you that confidence to say you know what, you absolutely can do this. 

There is a pathway forward. There is a way to make this accessible, achievable. Here's my story. I can do it. And that's where I come down to if I can do this, so can you.

And I've applied that philosophy going forward into my training aligned with the growth in AMA. It's aligned with the retention of long-term members as well because it's not just in terms of you creating people around you that go oh I like that person, I want to stay. It goes so much further than that.

Even down to a few years ago now, just at the end of 2020, I had a massive knee injury at a grading and completely ruptured my ACL, MCL, PCL, lateral meniscus, medial meniscus and fractured my tibial plateau. 

All in the one move at the end of the day and I'd been doing way harder stuff and it was with just something completely innocuous, just a simple little jumping step and my knee went. 

That mindset of what for most people that's game over, that's your career's over, your martial arts journey's probably over. The recovery from that sort of an injury, typically you only see that on the rugby pitch because it's just done. The recovery from its two years. It's just huge. And even then it's never the same.

For me, I looked at that as well, I was completely bed bound when I was this age. And you look at this now and say okay, it wasn't mentally a tough thing to deal with. It was alright cool, how do I get back? How do I get back? And if I get back, what do I change within that?

I think I did that and I had it. I came back on crutches to teach the next morning. It's all good. Still got a voice. That'll do. There's a black belt they can kick. And I came back and I just kept teaching. 

Then I had my surgery and I think I was off for about a week and a bit before I was so frustrated with sitting on the sidelines. I was like no, that's it, I'm coming back to teach.

That sort of changes things because you end up with adults who typically the lifespan of an adult training would be X number of years. A lot of our adult members now are getting into their mid fifties and they've been with us since their kids were three and these kids are graduating high school now.

 And so these parents are getting older but they have no intention of leaving.

And so it becomes that question of I've got to make sure that I'm grading and showing there's a way forward with injury, with limitation, with this, with that and whatever pathway forward there is. 

So that's why December last year I made it a priority to prove that you can still grade, you can come back and that's where I got my fifth degree black belt in Taekwondo from because I was able to find a way to be successful in that and prove that it is possible. 

And it ended up with a host of other black belts who said oh I think I'll end my journey here, I'll just train. 

They're now going wow, maybe I can achieve a fourth degree black belt. Maybe I can stick at this longer. And providing that pathway forward of inspiration.

George: So let's change gears quickly. Business wise. I'm always speaking to founders, mostly founders. You're a head instructor of a martial arts empire. 

From the last time I spoke to Hakan, about 1800 students, four full time locations. What does the head instructor mean to you? What is your day-to-day role?

Great question.

It means preempting and putting out fires. That's the short answer.

George: What are the fires? Which are the biggest fires? Let's go there.

Mark: The biggest fires are keeping the delivery consistent for everyone else. I will always back Grandmaster Ridvan, Hakan, Sarah, myself to deliver. And I know that.

But in the martial arts industry, typically a lot of the people who teach for you and work for you, and especially if you're running a big class, you've got a team on the mats, not just a team of instructors. 

It's easy to motivate a small team. Say if you're a school that's got five employees, get together, motivate, cohesion, stick together. That's easy.

But when you're a team that's got a lot of people between 18 and 26, 27, they've all got lives and it's even different from the high school life. It's the early young adult life and they bring in their life with them. 

You want to have a barrier where you don't get involved in that life and you're like your life's your life, enjoy it, but also then motivate them to bring out the best from within them because they're there to help you change the life of that person in front of you.

If you've got 60 on the mats, if you've got 80 on the mats, it doesn't matter. You could have 20 on the mats, the experience and delivery on that should be the same. 

And the real challenge, one of the real challenges, is to lift them into that headspace, into that mentality where they feel inspired to deliver. And sometimes deliver to people who are well beyond their years and very high profile in terms of their job and career. 

You talk about some of these incredibly talented martial artists, fourth degree black belts, fifth degree black belts, and they're still quite young and they're teaching a 50 year old who's a professional lawyer, the top of this, the top of that.

And they go, oh, I'm nervous about saying the wrong thing. You've got to say, recognize you're the expert and make them have fun and engage with them and get them to play on that level. That is a great problem to be solved.

And something that I find a really fun problem to solve, right through to the tricky problems to solve, which is a parent who's upset or a child who won't join in. Or from a broader scale, leads, conversions, tracking, sales skills, upskilling your team, finding and hiring the right team, right through to dealing with locations, dealing with council changes, approvals, the whole broad spectrum of things.

And so for my role in particular within the Australian Martial Arts organization, it's around teaching. And I will teach anywhere from 40 to 60 classes a week. If there's a class and I'm here, I'll go out and run it. 

That's where my strength is, in front of the group, leading it.

On the day to day it's tracking and tracing and improving systems and putting a lot of things into place. 

For example, right now I'm taking over a trial period of tracking all leads and implementing the most up to date lead tracking strategies and making sure those systems are as fully up to date as possible.

I attribute AMA's success to the fact that we never sit back and say we've made it, we've got this, it's great. I look at it like, we have discussions with Hakan and Sarah and Grandmaster Ridvan all the time as a team. 

And we're going, okay, how do we do better? What could be better? What's wrong with this system? How do you make the system better?

And if you have that question, don't ask the question. Come to us with two or three solutions. Be part of the problem solving strategy. And you turn up, and that encourages discussion, encourages planning, encourages thought process.

And me personally, that was one of my things coming into this year.

I said, I'm not happy with the lead process that we've been following. I went out, became a student again, learned everything I could in terms of the sales process. And I've trained very heavily in that for the last 12 weeks.

And now I have a system to implement, and that's where I want to put a 12 week sprint into this now and be able to track the progress of that before rolling it out to everyone else in the team, making sure that they're bringing what's best in 2025 into everything we do.

George: That's cool. I speak to a lot of martial arts school owners, helping them grow. A lot of this is marketing, a lot of this is lead generation.

I feel sometimes there's too much, there's a lack of responsibility, like you're going to do it for us. And I've always felt that whenever I bring a client like that on board, that it's all my responsibility, it's always short lived. 

Because no one's going to magically build the business for you. And if there's no investment in growing the skills, marketing, everything, right? Marketing, being on the mats, the lead flow, where they come, how they sign up.

It's all really one thing. I feel it's one thing because it's one people's skillset. It's understanding people's motivations, how they start, what makes them inquire, knowing that they're probably going to stand in their own way to get started and overcoming that.

And then they're on the mats and then, like everything in life, there's going to be the next obstacle. Maybe it's a belt, maybe it's a grading. Now they're going to quit on themselves.

So everything really comes down to this human behavior element. And I find that understanding marketing really solves a lot of that because you're trying to understand human behavior. 

And it's always refreshing to hear that, yeah, we take it in our own hands because there is no magic unicorn that's just going to click all the buttons and do everything. You got to do the hard yards, right?

Mark: Yeah, that's exactly right.

And I think one of the things I found to be most refreshing about doing all this is, one, learning so much and being able to apply it across. Getting results driven across different industries is always fun as well. 

My fiancée owns and runs her own dance school, and so on my time off, I go over there and do what I do for AMA.

And so I manage her business as well and provide her with the tools for growth. And proof's in the pudding, right? You've got to say, are the systems that we teach and what we do and how we can help a school—does it work? And with growing her school, it's literally doubled in size in the last two years because of the systems we put in place.

It's really fun when you go ahead and learn something new and go, okay, obviously this is going to work in martial arts. You've got all these years of experience to put behind it. You can talk, you can do this. But then go, okay, does it work over there? Oh yeah, it does.

Right. What else are you working on? Does that work in that industry? Yeah, it does. Oh, great.

And so to be able to play in different fields and learn how they all interconnect, work together a little bit, like you're saying—taking ownership over learning something. 

For me, especially, the more I learn, the more I'm recognizing that everything's the same thing. You learn in terms of sales, how to overcome objections, communicating with people, and getting them to do it.

But that's the exact same strategy to use. If you've got a five-year-old trying to get them to join a class or an adult who's turned up that day going, I think I'm going to need to cancel. I've hurt my shoulder.

I've got a frozen shoulder. That's something that I've encountered twice this year. I've got two of the ladies I teach who are in that sort of early fifties age bracket and they've gone, I've got a frozen shoulder.

I think my martial arts journey's over. I can't even bring my other hand up. And we're like, great.

Work with that. Let's go. Just do it on this side.

No problems. And being able to show them that it's not over, you've invested 10 years of your life in this. Why would you throw that away? Let's go.

And it's the same principles, just delivered in a different way. 

George: Hundred percent. I feel salesmanship, and it's always, I'm wary of saying it, but salesmanship is really, it's everything.

Because I say I'm wary to say this because it could bring up some limiting beliefs, and people have had a bad experience with a salesman, and then they throw around the car salesman, or there's labels, right?

Mark: Just think of it as a sleazy salesman. That's what everyone thinks of, a sleazy salesman.

George: Exactly.

But if you've gone through any legit sales training, you'll know that salesmanship is getting people to enhance their life and take them from one situation to a better alternative.

Mark: That's exactly it. It's finding a way to be not just sympathetic to what someone's going through, but how to create empathy and recognize what they're going through. 

Helping them because you have 100 percent belief in your product, in your ability to do that.

And for me, that's the difference. Let’s say, a smaller mindset to a growth mindset is the ability to say, it doesn't matter who walks through that door, I'm going to find a way to be successful and help that person because I 100 percent back and believe that this will change their life.

George: I love that. And I feel, good salesmanship will mean that you can do that and you can identify that problem and know from the bottom of your heart that it's something you can help with.

 And it also means having the discipline to know when you can't and you're not a right fit, and being able to have that level of transparency.

I attribute salesmanship to just so much because it's just that understanding of psychology. 

It is understanding when a student joins, when they start and they reach the new, because everything in martial arts is you're here, and then it's, you step out of your comfort zone, and then your new comfort zone becomes your norm. And now it's the next comfort zone.

And every step is a new step of a new mindset. It's a new evolution. And understanding salesmanship helps with being able to carry people up those levels and adjusting their mindset.

And I see it a lot in our community as well, where there's martial arts coordinators that I've worked with in the beginning, and the self-talk of, I can't do this video and I can't do that. 

And you guys have nailed that. I always use you guys as an example because of video for social media and providing value. You guys have really got that down.

But then seeing people evolve and step up into that, and all of a sudden there's this new level of confidence where you had the martial artist from 25 years and they have all the confidence, but now they've taken that confidence into a new realm, a new position. 

That's how you become the local authority, right? You step up and you’re able to present yourself with confidence. And it really shows, like, if people can present well on video and things like that.

Mark: Absolutely. And I think that's the biggest area that is changing going forward into 2025 and beyond. We're really no longer being pigeonholed into you're a martial arts instructor or you're a business owner.

It's that saying of you have to wear all the hats, and the goal being to know how to do everything. Find what your passion is.

If your passion is delivery, then allow yourself that freedom to deliver. You still need to be good enough to do the jobs you have to do and get better at doing them so that you can eventually train others to step off and not have to do those roles.

At the end of the day, that's how everyone has to scale their businesses.

The frustrating point for a lot of school owners that are sitting at that 100 to 200 students is you're going to have to be doing your social media. You're going to have to be doing your sales calls, your lead calls, your retention calls, every system or part of it.

You might have an admin who's there while classes are on and they can make some calls, but here's the thing. 

No one is ever going to do a call as well as you because if you're paying them by the hour, they don't care as much as you. Until you reach a point where you can invest in your business and hire somebody who is just outstanding at that job. 

And they can do that job better than you because of the systems they've trained in, and you can bring in your scripts and what you do, then you're on a different playing field.

But until then, you've got to be willing to learn, be willing to make mistakes, modify your scripts, and upskill yourself in all of that.

George: Love that. Cool, Mark.

So last but not least, we're hosting the Partners Intensive and we're doing it at Australian Martial Arts Academy. Over the last couple of years, we've run a really epic event. I think mostly because we always base it on our members first, and so we create content that moves them up.

We're always talking about attracting the right students, increasing signups by improving automations, and the conversions and the retention side. We're always focused on the tools that can up-level our clients. 

I'd like to say we keep the content at a really high level in the sense that, because it's for members, it's not an event to get members.

It's for the members, and everything goes into that to craft really good content that can level people up and get things done while they're there.

Being at the Australian Martial Arts Academy, obviously I wanted to take advantage of you. In my mind, the Australian Martial Arts Academy is at the pinnacle of martial arts business success.

A lot of people can't fathom that level of success. But even if that's not the goal, and it's just adding an extra hundred students or, like you say, being able to be in that position to scale so you can add that extra instructor or person that can do the calls and the sales and so forth, there's a lot to gather from how you guys operate.

And being at one of the locations, I thought what better could there be than to actually be in the environment where that happened.

You've been talking on a few topics. Can you recall what those topics are? And if you could just give us a brief, that'd be epic.

Mark: Absolutely. The first one is going to be talking about how to 5X your sales, so the sales process and conversion strategies.

At AMA, we've had huge success in that wheel, in that cycle over 40, 42 plus years. But what we want to showcase is how that system needs to update and change into 2025. And really from an operations perspective, because there's a lot of information out there in the market in terms of lead generation.

But you've got to go a whole lot further than that these days in terms of actually being able to get someone from showing even one iota of interest through to getting them to book the child and to come in. 

And really coming into talking about how that process works, and with the right system, how you can dramatically increase your sales. So that's the first topic.

The second topic is how to triple your engagement. So how to deliver on the floor teaching and create those moments of engagement that capture the audience in front of you.

And this is something I'm really passionate about. I've done a lot of work in this area in terms of pitch, tonality, and storytelling, and how to incorporate that into everything you do so that it doesn't matter if you've got five year olds in front of you. 

They're literally hanging off every word, staring at you, waiting for the next one, right through to you're talking to a room full of doctors, lawyers, any profession at that level. 

But you will 100 percent back yourself to say, I'm going to engage with every single one of these people, and not only engage with them, but have them leave with something they can implement in their life today that's going to be game changing.

Not a technique, not a kick, not a self-defense move, but actually practically changing the way we think about things, reframing. And that's, as a martial artist, what we want to do in terms of keeping ourselves safe. But how can we apply that to every other element in our life?

And if you can learn how to do that, that changes the way you can work with your class, which obviously then leads back to 5Xing your sales process because you'll create more referrals.

George: That's cool. That's awesome. I'm really looking forward to it.

Cool, Mark. Thanks so much for jumping in. Thanks for sharing your story.

It was great for me to learn as well, and I'm looking forward to hanging out in Sydney in June. I'll see you at the event.

Mark: Awesome. Thanks so much. I'm looking forward to it.

 

INVITATION: If you’d like more info about working with me in and Hakan in Partners Mentor, Just message me ‘Mentor’ on Facebook and I’ll send the details over in a doc (no sales call required) Send Message On Personal Profile >

 

 

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