How Australian Martial Arts Academy's head instructor turned chronic fatigue into a leadership edge – driving growth and retention at a top-tier school.

IN THIS EPISODE:

• The Belt-By-Belt Recovery Story That Changed Mark’s Life (And His Students')
• Walking Away From Medicine To Pursue The Martial Path Full-Time
• The Hidden Energy Technique That Helps You Show Up Big—Even When You’re Running On Empty
• How Teaching On Crutches Inspired A Wave Of Black Belts To Keep Going
• The Sales Strategy That Works As Well In A Kids Class As It Does On The Phone
• And more

*Need help growing your martial arts school? Apply Here.

TRANSCRIPTION

George: Hey, it's George Fourie. Welcome to another episode of the Martial Arts Media™ Business Podcast. So, today I'm speaking with Mark Loughran from the Australian Martial Arts Academy.

So, episode 156—155—I’d been chatting to Hakan, Hakan Manav, and Mark’s name dropped in there quite a few times. So I thought I’d bring the man on himself to have a chat about 18 years in martial arts. 

He’s also one of the head instructors at the Australian Martial Arts Academy, and one of our featured speakers at the Partners Intensive that’s coming up in June, depending on when you listen to this.

But with that said, welcome to the call, Mark.

Mark: Thank you very much. Great to be here. 

George: Good stuff.

We've only just recently met as well. So I'm going to take this as a blank canvas and a conversation just to tap into your genius, the things that you do. So if we had to start from the beginning, who's Mark, how did you get into the industry? Let's go from there.

Mark: Yeah, that's a really interesting story, actually. My journey into the martial arts industry started as a recovery piece. Flashback to 2005, I was graduating high school.

So, that makes me feel like I’m starting to get old now, everyone I’m teaching was born after that year. Flashback to that time, I graduated high school and got presented with a couple of opportunities.

One was from my parents. They said, “If you want to go further and study at university, you can do that,” because my dad worked as a Deputy Vice Chancellor at James Cook Uni. I grew up in Townsville, in Far North Queensland.

And they said, “If you want to go to university here, go for it. Stay at home, it’s free, all good.”

And they said, but if you want to go away, pay for it yourself. And that was the deal. My brother had the same deal.

He was a couple of years older than me. And he got himself a full scholarship to Melbourne uni. And he was like, Townsville was too hot.

I did the exact same thing, except I went to UNSW. So I've got a scholarship to study medicine at UNSW and went down there, started that journey and ended up getting really sick towards the end of my first year with glandular fever. 

And there was a whole piece of trying to identify what was going on there, because I was really sick for quite a long time. I ended up with chronic fatigue syndrome, which I still have now, 19 years on.

And I still battle that every single day. My sort of path into martial arts started about a year after I got really sick with that. I ended up bed-bound for one to two years.

Part of my recovery, actually, I should backtrack a little bit. I was doing high-level athletics at a national level at that time as well. I used to play A-grade tennis and represented Queensland in different sports when I was in high school.

I was always an athletic person. And then, for someone to go from that to completely bed-bound, it was a big change and a big struggle. So part of my recovery from that was, there is no treatment.

It's just management. Try and do some exercise. What have you never done? And so I thought, Oh, I've never tried martial arts, always been interested.

Following up on Episode 155, Hakan Manav shares martial arts staff development strategies to build a high-performing team – giving you the freedom to scale and grow.

IN THIS EPISODE:

• How to transition from solo instructor to building a scalable team

• The first hire that can make or break your martial arts school's growth

• Why letting go is essential for business expansion and instructor success

• A proven framework for training and promoting instructors from within

• How to turn parents and adult students into valuable team members

• And more

INVITATION: If you’d like more info about working with me in and Hakan in Partners Mentor, Just message me ‘Mentor’ on Facebook and I’ll send the details over in a doc (no sales call required) Send Message On Personal Profile >

TRANSCRIPTION

George: Hey there, it's George Fourie. Welcome to another Martial Arts Media™ Business Podcast. So, this week I've got Hakan back on the call. Good day Hakan.

Hakan: Hey George.

George: In the previous episode 155 and you can check that out if you haven't, martialartsmedia.com/155. We spoke about the four obstacles that Hakan and his family overcame over the last 43 years to build their 1800 student strong academy.

And so this week we thought we would dive deeper into these obstacles. Thanks for jumping on again, Hakan.

Hakan: Pleasure to be here. Thank you

George: We spoke a little bit about the product. We spoke about staff development, personal leadership. Let's loop into staff development for this call. Let's just dive a bit deeper and look at the things to watch out for. 

Why should we even be doing it? Which direction to take when scaling your school? 

Hakan: Absolutely. Once the product is nailed and you've got a great thing people are coming back for in terms of the actual martial art that you're teaching. The next step we want to think about is how we can deliver this at scale. For a number of reasons? 

First of all, we love what we do. But there are days that we might feel ill or we might want to go on holiday, or we're going to be away for various reasons. So you need the classes to be running at the same acceptable standard.

So we've got those obvious reasons, but I want to touch on a personal experience that we went through as an academy. I'm going to say about 25 years ago now.

Hakan Manav reveals how they solved 4 growth obstacles martial arts school owners face and built a thriving, full‑time operation with 4 locations, a 30 staff, and 1,800 students.

IN THIS EPISODE:

• Explore the hidden product tweak that keeps students smiling and sparks unstoppable growth

• Uncover a fresh staff-training approach that secretly sculpts high-performing instructors

• Follow a surprising systems shortcut that quietly streamlines every corner of the academy

• Experience the leadership shift that frees you from day-to-day tasks and ignites team synergy

• A glimpse into the Manav’s families path to a 1,800-student academy by overcoming 4 key obstacles

• And more

FREE: Swipe the exact plan I use to fill martial arts schools with 200+ students within 7 months (And make sure your students are an incredible fit > Learn More

TRANSCRIPTION

GEORGE: Hey there, it's George Fourie. Welcome to another Martial Arts Media™ Business Podcast episode. Today I've got a guest with me and I was just looking through, I actually googled it, when the last time he was on the podcast and it goes back to episode 14, November the 1st, 2016.Nine years ago. Cool, welcome back Hakan.

HAKAN: Thank you George, happy to be here.

GEORGE: Awesome. So I'm trying to think when we had that podcast, I was probably, I saw you do a demonstration at Weimar and that's probably a couple of years before that. And you already had your DVDs. I think we still got your DVD box of your program.

HAKAN: We're telling our age, aren't we?

GEORGE: And I guess it's funny how like our journey together, work together. I also looked into Stripe and you've also the longest standing client that I've worked with in regards to marketing and Facebook ads.

And just the other day we got talking about helping more school owners and we decided to do a joint venture together in what we call Partners Mentor. And we'll probably talk a little bit about that, but there's a few things that we want to discuss in the industry, particularly where people are getting stuck, things that we are seeing.

There's a lot of our conversations on messenger back and forth and planning and doing some marketing and me getting feedback from what you're seeing on the mats, hands-on, me looking at what am I seeing around the industry, what's coming from different school owners around the globe, what people are facing.

And I think a good thing for us to be in this episode, one of a few, would be to, yeah, just have a bird's eye overview of looking where things are at in the industry, what are you seeing, where people are getting stuck, what's coming up and so forth. But before we get into that for those listening and they haven't met you, just give us a bit of a roundup.

After 13 years and working with 400+ martial arts school owners, I share my refined vision from helping school owners break the 100 student barrier, to 300, to $1M revenue per year. 

IN THIS EPISODE:

• The three-part framework to attract, convert, and retain students for long-term growth
• Why most martial arts school owners struggle with marketing—and how to fix it
• A new lead follow-up engine that automates engagement and increases conversions
• The one overlooked strategy that can increase school revenue by 20-30%
• How to scale without burnout while maintaining a balanced personal and professional life
• And more  

INVITATION: If you’d like more info about working with me in Partners, Just message me ‘Partners’ on Facebook and I’ll send the details over in a doc (no sales call required)

Send Message

TRANSCRIPTION

Today I want to take you through my plan to help 100 martial arts school owners scale from 100 to 300 students and help 10 martial arts school owners scale to 1 million dollars in annual revenue. I'm going to go through the whole plan. I'm going to take you through this google doc and I'm probably going to go a little off script just to give you a bit more context around how the story evolved, what got me here, what brought on this plan and all the rest. 

So, I'll start at the semi-beginning. 13 years ago I discovered martial arts at my five-year-old's first martial arts class. I'd never been to a martial arts class, and didn't know much about it. 

I saw the movies. All that I thought is, you know, for me as a first-time parent, what a great activity this looked like for my child to get into. And I was watching this class and to me the only words I could find to describe it was personal development in the physical form. 

I was seeing these kids stand six feet tall, disciplined, confident, and I thought wow these kids are learning like life-changing skills and it's all disguised as fun and they don't even know it. And that moment in hindsight was a life-changing impact for me which brought me to this life-changing journey. So I started helping the school where my son was training with lead generation.

This came about completely not on purpose. I actually bumped into one of the instructors at a kid's playground where my child was playing and got talking to the instructor and learned what they were doing. And this was the first time I sort of got some insight just on how the business was running etc.

And my marketing brain kind of just triggered a few ideas and I thought look I know a few things that could definitely help you guys. I'd love to come and share what it is. And so at this time in my life I was deep into the trenches of online marketing.

I was doing Google ads. I was mainly running online affiliate type products. Doing Google ads to landing pages and emails and I'd gotten a little bit of success.

My biggest aha moment was being in Australia at the time and selling to someone in the United States that I've never met and they bought my product and I said oh wow this the possibilities of this are endless. I know it's common now but at that time it wasn't that common. Anyway, the school was already successful.

In this Martial Arts Media™ Business Podcast I took Michele Ciampa from Shotokan Karate Club Tasmania through The Price Amplifier which boosted his student value by 52%.  

IN THIS EPISODE:

• How a simple, weekly social media post became the primary driver of student enrollment for a growing martial arts club.
• A surprising shift in pricing structure that could more than double annual revenue per student.
• Why leading enrollment conversations with value—not price—could be the key to better engagement and commitment.
• A new approach that slashes the number of students needed to meet financial goals while still enhancing the club’s impact.
• A strategic plan to engage new age groups, adding depth and variety to the dojo’s community.

 FREE: Swipe the exact plan I use to fill martial arts schools with 200+ students within 7 months (And make sure your students are an incredible fit > Learn More

TRANSCRIPTION

GEORGE: Hey, it's George Fourie. Welcome to another Martial Arts Media™ Business Podcast. Today we're doing something new.

We're going to go with a full-on coaching call and do something a bit different and see if we can create some value, create a bit of conversation and really help one of our guests go to their next level, which we're going to discover what that is. And so somebody that I've known for quite a while, Michele Ciampa.

MICHELE: Hello.

GEORGE: Did I pronounce it correctly?

MICHELE: Yes, that's correct.

GEORGE: Michele Ciampa from Tasmania Shotokan Karate Club in Tasmania. So welcome! How are you doing, Michele?

MICHELE: Good. Yourself?

GEORGE: Good, good, good.

Cool. So if you mind just giving us a bit of a background. Yeah, just a brief overview about your karate club, who you teach, how long you've been going for, etc.

MICHELE: Absolutely. Okay. So I started teaching in 2019, just in a small community hall at first.

And then we had some renovations going on with that. So I had to find another location. So I found a place in a dance studio for a little while, and then I was back to the community hall.

And then just last year in October, I decided I'll just gamble everything and take a jump. And I opened in the main street of lovely Bernie here in Tasmania.

GEORGE: Congratulations!

In this martial arts business case study, Evan and Erica share how they scaled their martial arts school from 30 to 170 members, boosting monthly recurring revenue by $10,000. 

IN THIS EPISODE:

• A unique perspective of Evan and Erica on the connection between music and martial arts
• The business relationship when it comes to their martial arts school
• Problems that Evan and Erica faced in their martial arts school business
• Balancing martial arts tradition and business
• The benefits of joining the Partners program and the influence of its community
• What is the A.I.R. model, and how is it going to help you in your martial arts business
• Involvement of Evan and Erica’s children in the martial arts school
• Driven by a vision of financial independence and lifestyle flexibility
• Breaking away from Conventional Life
• And more  

FREE: Swipe the exact plan I use to fill martial arts schools with 200+ students within 7 months (And make sure your students are an incredible fit > Learn More

TRANSCRIPTION

GEORGE: Hey, it's George Fourie. Welcome to another Martial Arts Media™ Business Podcast. Today, I've got two awesome guests with me, and this is my favorite episode to be doing because it's a martial arts business case study with two amazing clients who I've known for a little over a year.

Evan Whetter and Erika Graf, soon to be Erika Whetter, welcome to the show.

ERICA: Thank you.

EVAN: Thanks, George. It's great to be here.

GEORGE: You've got a bit of an interesting story, and I want to explore both because you're long-time business owners and you're also two very well-established musicians, which I really admire because that was like part of my history for a long time in my life. Leaving school, I played drums, and I didn't want to do anything else but play drums.

And I would play in cover bands and bands, and I would travel all around, and that was my thing. Until I realized I couldn't cut it as a musician, and then life took over. But you guys have really made it work, and we're going to talk about all the martial arts stuff and everything. But you also run a music school, right?

Breaking down the price barrier: Are your martial arts tuition fees simply too cheap? Are you undervaluing your classes? There’s poison in the pricing, and it might not be what you think.

IN THIS EPISODE:

• The stigma surrounding martial arts schools that charge premium prices
• The Myth of the “McDojo” label often given to successful martial arts schools 
• Overcoming the mindset blocks around martial arts tuition fees
• How to charge your worth and price your martial arts classes to represent it’s true value
• And more

*Need help growing your martial arts school? Start Here.

TRANSCRIPTION

Hey, it's George Fourie. Welcome to another Martial Arts Media™ Business Podcast. But today I want to talk about the poison in pricing for martial arts classes, for martial arts tuition.

Are martial arts classes just way too cheap? Are martial arts school owners charging way too much for their classes and tuition? Are they just ripping people off? Are people getting the value for what they are paying? Or are they the dreaded controversial McDojo if they charge too much? 

All right! Lots to unpack here. I will dive deep into this, probably ruffling a few feathers in my take on this, but it needs to be said and unpacked. So, let's do this.

For show notes, for the transcript of this episode, and all links mentioned, go to martialartsmedia.com/151. Let's jump in. 

If you've listened to my podcast for a while, okay if you haven't, but we talk a lot about marketing, lead generation, and getting and attracting new students for martial arts schools. That is the primary conversation because I guess in a way, I'm a little bit known for it.

People always come to me for that. But here's what's interesting: the first conversation that I had when we onboard martial arts schools into our Partners program was not about any marketing. We're always talking about offers and we're always talking about pricing.

It's probably the conversation that's valued the least, but it makes the biggest impact because when we fix this in a strategic way that's without selling your soul and all these limited negative beliefs that come up, providing good value and charging a premium, good premium rate for what your classes are worth.

It makes a huge impact because martial arts school owners come up with the idea that they need all these hundreds of students to hit their income goal to have a decent life and be able to provide their martial arts services without having to have a job, a side job to keep the dream alive, etc. 

You know, for martial arts school owners that want to do this full-time. They have this idea of all these students they need and all of a sudden, we half that by just tweaking the numbers, changing the terms, changing how we go about all this.

Now I want to address a few things that come up with us. First up, I probably want to say that there is no wrong and no judgment in any martial arts school owner who provides a great service, and loves what they do. They serve the art of what they do and they want to share that and maybe they just want to do it part time and maybe they just want to keep it as a hobby…

The tables turn as the interviewer becomes the interviewee: George Fourie shares his life experiences and journey through marketing and martial arts on the Kyl Reber Podcast.

IN THIS EPISODE:

• George's journey from studying computer programming to selling computers, working on a cruise ship, and eventually starting Martial Arts Media™
• The story behind George's most impactful $37 sale
• George's near-death experience as a pivotal wake-up call that transformed his outlook on life and career
• How George discovered a passion for martial arts and saw potential in combining this with his marketing expertise
• How Martial Arts Media™ was founded, focusing on supporting school owners to grow their businesses through digital marketing
• And more

*Need help growing your martial arts school? Start Here.

TRANSCRIPTION

Hey, it's George Fourie. Welcome to the Martial Arts Media™ Business Podcast. Today, I am going to feature an episode, an interview that I had on the Kyl Reber Podcast. Kyl, a good friend of mine, interviewed me. You can look him up on kylreber.com.au. Also, martialartsmedia.com/145.

I had the pleasure of having Kyl on our podcast. By the way, I was looking at it. In episode 145, we were talking about him having 370 students. I know that number's almost up to 500 now. They are booming, to put it mildly. Anyway, go have a listen to that if you haven't yet.

For this episode, I really wanted to feature it because I got to tell you. I've been trying to record a podcast where I tell a bit of my story and just background where I came from, how this all got together, and I've given the pieces and inside of this over the years. I just had a look. We had episode 150, and I actually started this podcast in 2016, July of 2016.

I'm probably in the race for the longest-going podcast with the least amount of episodes, but 150 awesome episodes it has been, and I'm going to continue to do this for a while. Anyway, I've really wanted to have an in-depth– about my story, and I tried to record it a couple of times solo by myself, and I've got to say, it felt weird.

I did it about three times, and I deleted it every time. Then, I got on Kyl’s podcast, and Kyl gave me 10 questions just to prepare for the podcast. I did that, and I thought it was going to be enough, but Kyl's questioning technique was really solid and in-depth. Every time I answered, he dug a little deeper and dug a little deeper.

I’ve got to be honest. I probably spoke about things that I maybe just haven't shared over the years. Nothing too serious, but just things that I've buried in my past and let go. But Kyl did a really good job of unpacking all the details about me and asking a lot of questions. So, this podcast is going to be a bit longer.

I highly recommend you check out Kyl Reber’s podcast. I will have all the links for that at martialartsmedia.com/150. That's it for me. I hope you enjoy this. I would love to know your feedback afterward. Let's dig in…

If you’re running Facebook ads and all your martial arts leads are tire-kickers, your problem might be two-fold. Here’s the fix.

IN THIS EPISODE:

• What’s potentially causing the wrong quality of martial arts leads
• The pitfall of labeling your martial arts prospects as tire-kickers
• How better Facebook ads attract better martial arts prospects
• Fixing low-quality martial arts leads with paid trials
• And more

*Need help growing your martial arts school? Start Here.

TRANSCRIPTION

Hey there, George Fourie here. Welcome to another Martial Arts Media™ Business podcast. Today, I want to talk about your martial arts leads being tire-kickers. What if they are all tire-kickers, non-responsive, or just the wrong demographic or bad quality when you are running Facebook ads, Google ads, or from any other marketing source?

I’m going to dive into the details with a few little twists to this conversation. For show notes and all the resources of this podcast, head over to martialartsmedia.com/149. Let's jump in.

What happens when all my leads are tire-kickers? They inquired via the website, Facebook ads, or Google ads. They've put their hand up, disappeared, or never put their hand up. We can't get hold of them, and that's that. All the leads are tire-kickers, or they are responsive, but they're just the wrong type of lead.

They won't fit the culture of your club, or they won't be fit for the products that you have, the martial arts services that you offer, and the classes that you run. These are all things that can be fixed within your targeting, quality, and messaging. But here's the danger. I want to address the danger of labeling all your prospects as tire-kickers.

A few of my members in our Partners group brought this up: I love you, and you're not being singled out. Actually, I can count about six or seven encounters where this has come up, and that's just this year. So, you're definitely not being singled out. This is done with love. I hope that this is helpful for you and for you, the listener, as well.

Labeling all your leads as tire-kickers. Here's the danger. Let's say you're running an ad campaign, and you've got 20 to 30 leads in your CRM. It's just a list of names. And you get one bad response, two bad, three, and all of a sudden, your sales mojo motivation dies out.

And you're like, “Oh, really?” They’re all tire-kickers. Maybe it was only three, maybe it was five, but all of a sudden, you give everybody this unanimous label. Now, what if you took those 20 to 30 people off the list and put them all in a room together, all in a room together, or all on the mats? And you looked at all these people, all their faces, and they all put their hand up.

They responded to your ad, right? Can you look them all in the eye and say, “You're all tire-kickers. All of you are wasting my time. It's like all of you got together and collectively decided that you're going to waste my time.” A bit unrealistic, right? But it's very easy for us to look at a lead list and then throw a label out.

The danger that I want to address is it's their fault and not yours. So, immediately, you relinquish all responsibility for the leads, not furthering the conversation or signing up, and it's their fault and not yours. Now, I'm not here to debate whether that's true or not because there can be parts where it's their fault.

But if it's all their fault, you've got no room for improvement. They've got nothing that you can fix. You could never really say it's them. And yep, I come from an old school sales training where things were beaten down into my brain, not literally, but the message was enforced all the time—that it's never about the prospect.

You're the sales guy. It's your job to be persuasive, engaging, have charisma, and actually engage in a relationship. Sell the program and actually get them interested. Uncover the underlying objections or problems that they are facing and the reason why they put their hand up. Maybe they are super paranoid about taking this first step.

There's a lot there to unpack. This whole process between them putting their hand up and saying, “Hey, I'm interested,” and to actually go ahead, it can be a little fragile process. And so, we have to take it with care that this person is stepping potentially into an unknown territory.

They've never trained in martial arts before. They don't know what it's about. They've seen people beating each other up at UFC. They've got these perceived concepts of what it can be like completely untrue, but they have all these things going on, or it's super personal, right? There's something that happened in their life that they really need this…

Here’s how using an irresistible martial arts offer can almost completely squash your no-show rate for martial arts trial appointments.

IN THIS EPISODE, YOU WILL LEARN: 

• Adding a human touch to automated messages with martial arts prospects 
• How to write a successful follow-up email sequence
• Comparing free and paid martial arts trials
• Using high-converting landing pages when you’re time-poor
• Using The Messenger Signup Method to sign up prospects
• And more

*Need help growing your martial arts school? Start Here.

TRANSCRIPTION

Hey, it's George Fourie. Welcome to another Martial Arts Media™ Business podcast. Today, I'm going to be talking about how to reduce no-shows.  Prospect inquires, books a trial appointment with you, but then ghost you; they don't show up. And sometimes, it's really hard to re-engage and get the conversation back going and get them to reschedule. 

So, I'm going to be talking about a couple of ways that you can reduce no-shows, almost eliminate them completely. Some are going to be simpler, and some are going to be a little bit more complex. There's going to be a few options for you to consider. I'm going to cover those. Make sure to head over to martialartsmedia.com/148. That is where we've got the show notes, downloads, and everything for this episode. Head over there, and hey, let's jump in. 

Okay, some context first. I was talking at a martial arts business event in Texas late last year, that’s 2023 and was chatting to a lot of martial arts business owners that were experiencing a lot of no-shows. A bunch of these guys was using different types of marketing agencies and just various problems that were coming up, mainly no-shows. 

Out of the 10 leads that they were getting, only three were actually showing up—three to four. I’m kind of shocked, to be honest. That's like a really, really high no-show, right? So, there are a few things that you can do to mitigate this now. There are a couple of dangers and a couple of things to consider here, right? 

If you are trying to automate things as much as possible and be as hands-off as possible, that might be the price that you're going to pay, right? Is that you're going to have some no-shows, and there's going to be little investment of time and following up and doing things, but you're going to get fewer leads. You're going to be paying a lot more for leads to show up. That's just going to be the nature of the beast for you.

But, if you're keen to be a bit more invested and thinking, “Well, I want to get my dollars’ worth.” Like, “I want to really reduce the cost per acquisition of getting these students in, really want to bring that cost down, control it.” There are a couple of things that you can do, so let's explore them. 

Number one is, first up, just looking at the automation that happens, your automated follow-up sequences. What happens once a new trial, a parent or an adult books a trial to come and take their first class with you? What happens from that point? 

Are they getting automated email messages instantly and then timed all the way to their appointment? Are they getting text messages or follow-ups? What else? Is there some personalization? Maybe it's a real quick, like a video message—something that is a bit more personal. Because, let's face it, we're living in a world of AI automation, and everything is getting automated. 

The more human elements are getting removed, the more kind of numb you get to the messaging, right? Because it's almost like you're not responsible for answering to a human. So, you feel off the hook if you don't stick to your word for the machine, right? The more personalization you're going to remove from that process, you're probably going to be experiencing some form of no-shows. So, that's the first thing to look at. 

Look at what you can automate, but rather than automate, is there some personalization that you can do? It could be just grabbing the phone, doing a quick video message, and saying, “Hey, Johnny, I saw you're booked in for a class on X, Y, Z day. I’m really looking forward to meeting you. So is the team.” Whatever you want to do, right? Or show them around, etc. 

If you don't want to be that specific, the way you can get out of that is to say, “Hey, George. I just wanted to say thanks so much for booking your class.” You can introduce yourself, but make it a bit more automated, but still have a personal feel to it. That's one thing you can do, right? Optimize your automation, but then insert some form of personalization that makes it a bit more personal if that’s what you want—human to human. All right. That's option number one…